This is an excerpt from a report made to the Aviation Safety Reporting System. The narrative is written by the pilot, rather than FAA or NTSB officials. To maintain anonymity, many details, such as aircraft model or airport, are often scrubbed from the reports.
While departing ZZZ, a Piper P-28 departed Runway XX after my Cessna 150 and reported my aircraft “in sight” on takeoff, tower advising him that both aircraft were straight-out departures.
After I checked in with departure on flight following, controller advised me to level at 2,500 feet due to overtaking traffic. I was at 2,600 feet and climbing.
I descended to 2,500 feet and between 30 seconds to 1 minute later the aircraft passed directly over me. ADS-B said 300 feet above. My ADS-B did not register the conflict until after the controller had informed me to level off. I appreciate the controllers awareness and timely call.
As the aircraft being overtaken, I have the right of way, but also the responsibility to avoid other aircraft. In a VFR situation, I will now be making a slight course alteration on straight-out departures to prevent flying an exactly straight-out departure as my C150 will almost always be the slower aircraft and others will likely fly the straight-out heading.
I am unsure if the other aircraft knew where I was or truly saw me on departure. They were not on flight following and later in the flight flew through an active restricted area.
Based on the frantic tone and jumbled radio calls with Tower when they were cleared for takeoff, I believe this was a rusty pilot with poor situational awareness.
Many thanks again to the controller working departure over this morning for helping preventing a collision.
Primary Problem: Human Factors
ACN: 1957787
Being an ex air traffic controller and pilot (commercial + Instrument). Having many hours in both aircraft types, I say this. First of all “flight following” is only avaible if the controller has the time to provide it and there is guarantee of separation, only advisement.
The departure controller is responsible for IFR aircraft separation only. If he is providing flight following it is advisement only etc. “traffic 11 oclock 2 miles NW bound” it is up to the pilot to maintain his own VFR separation.
Most towers are not radar equiped and rely upon pilot reports as to help with traffic separation. It is still the pilots responsibility for their own separation until they enter the traffic pattern and are seen by the controller and sequenced for landing.
As for departures, the tower will usually ask the pilot their direction of flight. As for the “Cessna/Piper” situation the tower would say that the Cessna is also straight out and then clear the Piper for takeoff. At that time, the seperation for the two would fall to the Piper pilot. Flight following or not.
I must confess that this is how it was done during my time in the FAA. I was a controller from 1967 to 1981. Most of that time was in the Los Angeles basin area. I’m sure things have changed during that time…
Reminds me of a situation I was in many years ago, but only similar in that there was a slow aircraft being overtaken by a faster one after takeoff.
I had flown into an airshow that included nighttime performances. Some of the other pilots who flew in were not equipped to leave after dark so one of them managed to coordinate a departure with the tower/air boss during the intermission with the condition that all aircraft departing (maybe a half dozen) leave as a single flight.
I elected to join them but just went along with it when I was positioned last, behind a plane with a cruise speed not much above my stall speed. I would not do this again. Anyway, I used partial power on takeoff, but after getting off the ground, it was clear I couldn’t stay behind the other aircraft. I elected to pass underneath, so I could maintain sight of him, waiting until I was several seconds past before starting a slow climb. Don’t know what the people in the tower were thinking except the controller did make a comment on air of something like, “that almost looked planned!”
I got my SEL license in 1976 at Ft Lewis, WA. They had a flying club on post at the army airfield. (My instructor was a double partial arm amputee.) I was out for a practice ride and I flew north towards Seattle. My route took me through the SeaTac cone. I was at my required altitude and route. I was watchful and was not in anyones way….until what appeared to be a 737 on final went over the top of me and missed me by no more than 100 ft.
Next time I saw him I told my instructor and all he said was…Well, you were where you were supposed to be.
91.113, Right-of-way rules: (f) “Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.”
I had the same situation. A friend departed a busy airport in Denver to ferry a C172 I had just purchased. When cleared by ATC I departed behind him on the same runway. He said I overflew him and they could count the rivets in my underbelly. Absolutely did not see them. Probably due to rear profile against heavy ground clutter due to my out climbing them, and a very busy airspace.
Certainly something to consider when following slower aircraft.
The tower should report the pilot to the FAA. They have the tape? and N-Number and a call to the FSDO should have been made…..
Let’s see. The Piper had the Cessna in sight. The Cessna was aware of the Piper. The tower controller was aware of both of them. The tower controller issued a directive to the Cessna to avoid a conflict. The Piper passed at least 300 ft above the Cessna and likely more at the time of passing overhead.
So… although maybe a little dramatic sounding, everyone knew everything about everyone’s position. So, relax everyone.
And keep in mind… VFR crossing traffic is separated by just 500 ft in opposite directions.
— And the Cessna pilot questioning the Piper’s truthfulness about having the Cessna in sight, keeping track of the Piper thru a restricted airspace (if it indeed was active), judging rusty or not rusty because of one radio call, and commenting on him not being on flight-following (really… who cares) is an irrelevant bunch of stuff that tells me the Cessna pilot likely has issues (plus a weird gonna-getcha-mentality).
VFR altitudes would be 1000’ separation opposite direction, NOT 500’. Perhaps you meant an aircraft at an IFR altitude, which would be 500’ vertical separation. Ex 3500 VFR & 4000 IFR.
If we had air cops, they would chase the offender, bring him down, give him a breathalyzer test and detain him for reckless driving and temporarily suspend his license. But for the Grace of God, that overtake situation could have resulted in a mid-air collision, killing both pilots and possibly people on the ground. Will the offending pilot walk scott-free with just an impotent worthless ‘good talking to?’ When will this law enforcement happen? Not likely soon, since many (certainly not all) recreational GA pilots are cowboys who like to ride the airways range singing ‘Don’t fence me in.’ What will it take to get it done? Some VIP dies in such a wreck and their influential family rallies the government to take action.
Regards/J
Give me a break. Everyone (Piper pilot and controller) except the Cessna pilot knew exactly where everyone else was. This sounds like an overly dramatic report from a novice Cessna pilot who got scared from another aircraft passing at least 300 ft and likely 400-500 ft overhead in Class D airspace while under active control from a tower controller.
From the Cessna’s on-going complaints about the Piper (not on flight following, etc), I’m questioning everything the Cessna pilot is writing.
Just like me. I also have questioned me what was written by the Cessna pilot.
Slow wing aircraft is blind on the bottom view, a high wing is blind above. This unsafe scenario has been going on since the beginning of aviation!
I don’t believe that high wing vs low wing has anything to do with it when you are overtaking another aircraft. If you are below the other aircraft you will have a windshield full of view but if you are above (or close to it) your cowling could obscure your view. I whole heartedly recommend flight following as it was so very valuable in this experience.
What? What the heck does Flight Following have to do with this?
Both aircraft were under positive control in Class D airspace receiving direction from a tower controller who was actively directing both of them.
Flight following has nothing to do with this situation (in fact would have caused an issue if either pilot had switched to approach control for flight following immediately after departure – but why would they unless directed to by the tower controller).
The C150 was in contact with departure, not the tower, who saw the potential confliction and suggested the 150 level off. It does not appear the Piper was in contact with departure.
Not a pilot, but passed the FAA Part 107 test for UAV operations, so I know a little (enough to be dangerous).
How can a pilot, in VFR conditions, who has to know his place is much faster than the plane which just took off ahead of him, NOT maintain visual contact while overtaking? You have to know you’re going to be coming up on him eventually, unless he banks.
I get the issue with pitch and wing location impacting visibility, but if he can’t see him while overtaking why isn’t he doing banks to confirm separation? Or better yet holding his takeoff a bit longer to maintain separation?
To my untrained brain this looks like somebody violated VFR rules, and that person can expect to be answering questions from the FAA.
A typical high wing versus low wing situation. However, one of the many reasons I stopped flying a 152 was due to how slow they are.
I have flown both Piper and Cessna single engine aircraft In the Piper its very hard to see under the low wing A pilot looking for lower traffic could do series of banks left and right to look down
Wow! Scary! That is the worst call “Traffic, 6 O’clock, same altitude, overtaking…”
Head on a swivel!