This is an excerpt from a report made to the Aviation Safety Reporting System. The narrative is written by the pilot, rather than FAA or NTSB officials. To maintain anonymity, many details, such as aircraft model or airport, are often scrubbed from the reports.
Very busy traffic pattern this day with about five planes in the pattern.
I entered the traffic pattern on the downwind leg of Runway XX behind Aircraft Y that had just taken off from doing touch and goes and was going to remain in the pattern.
All aircraft were making good radio calls and could understand what they were saying except Aircraft Y in front of me. The pilot was a foreign student by his accent. He made a call on base and final which stated “touch and go” is what I understood.
I made my “turning final Runway XX” call and a 3 mile final call as Aircraft Y was touching down about 2,000 feet down Runway XX. Aircraft Y stopped on the runway about 3,500 feet down just before XX Taxiway.
I believe I was on a 1.5 mile final at this point. I was under the impression they were doing a touch and go and would be rolling. When I was in ground effect and flaring at the numbers, another voice came on the radio and said this is a “stop and go.”
I continued to land as there was 3,500 feet between my aircraft and Aircraft Y. I did think about doing a go-around, but thought it would be more dangerous at that point if I went around with Aircraft Y taking off 1/2 way down Runway XX.
Instructor didn’t say “stop and go” until after they stopped on the runway. I thought they were rolling and rotating.
After I exited the runway at the first taxiway about 1,500 feet behind where Aircraft Y was sitting on the runway, the examiner started yelling over the radio. I taxied to the FBO and got out of the plane.
Aircraft Y exited the runway and taxied to the ramp. Parked on the ramp sideways and the examiner got out of Aircraft Y and left it running with the student inside. People were walking around the ramp at this point as well.
The examiner was extremely rude and raising his voice and throwing his arms up and down causing a scene, taking pictures and threatening me that he would be talking to the FAA and “pulling the tapes.”
I was very calm and apologetic, explaining I had plenty of room to stop. I tried explaining my situation that I thought he was a touch and go, but he would not listen to anything I had to say, and just kept on yelling, interrupting anything I would try to say.
I was on a three-mile final as they were touching down. Even if it was a stop and go, that should have given ample time for them to stop and go again before I landed. I’m not sure why they sat on the runway for what seemed minutes in this much traffic. The examiner should pay closer attention to the traffic around the airport and not delay when he knows there are several aircraft in the pattern.
A very unprofessional examiner. When he came out yelling I was not expecting that, and I was a bit concerned and confused as to why he was so mad. If he knew I was there on final, why did they sit on the runway for that long? If I knew they were going to be a “stop and go” I would have flown a bigger pattern to allow for more time. I felt I gave them ample room and time for what I thought was going to be a “touch and go” as well as plenty of room and time for a “stop and go.”
As I was trying to talk to the examiner he would not listen to anything I had to say, kept interrupting and turned and walked away yelling the entire time. Could have totally been handled a different way without rage and anger from the examiner.
It surprises me that an FAA examiner can’t hold it together and be more professional. I would never want to fly with this individual and would hope I never share airspace with him again at any airport.
The best part about the aviation industry are the people. I have never in my 8,000 hours of flight time and over 25 years have I been treated like this from anyone in the industry. In my opinion if a pilot acts out in this manner over something that was not dangerous, I would question their ability to be somewhat calm in a real emergency.
It seemed to me that this examiner was creating a dangerous situation by being stopped on the runway for such a long time. And seemed to me he might have been instigating a problem.
Primary Problem: Procedure
ACN: 1960325
3 mile final? Must be Learjet .a 1/4 to a half mile is plenty for any ASEL Trainer
It had a similar incident with a examiner doing a BFR. On landing I was approx 12ins ,yes 12 ins off the center line . He grabbed the controls yelling that the center line was down the center . It was nearly a ground loop in the end . I found out later he hadn’t any experience with tail wheel aircraft . I then did my BFR else where with out any issues .
I was upfront with the new examiner about what happened and he told me I wasn’t the only one with an experience with that examiner.
I make a point of never landing when there’s another airplane on the runway, and I know some superb pilots who agree. “You can always go around”, as the new popular song says. And frankly, if another pilot makes a habit of landing behind other airplanes on the runway, what could start as a matter of convenience (or in some cases, bravado) could easily become an accident—stopping an airplane from 60 mph isn’t as easy as stopping a car, with the dinky little tires we have. It’s not unusual for a car to stop in 120 feet from 60 mph, but except for the STOL competitors with their purpose-built airplanes, not too many of us can stop the average light single in that short a distance. The accident that ensues would carry the label “careless and reckless”, even if there’s no specific regulation prohibiting landing behind another airplane.
On the same note, however, there’s zero excuse for a DPE, or any pilot for that matter, to act the way this one was described. Doing an unannounced stop and go on a busy non-towered airport is rude and unprofessional. Being unable to control one’s anger better than what was described is a recipe for disaster, and under the described circumstances, was an extremely poor example for the applicant/student—or for anyone else in the vicinity. I agree that that DPE should be reported as someone else recommended.
None of us is so great a pilot that we can’t be better, whether we have 8000 hours or 80 hours. We must all strive to be the best we can be, however. In this case, I see two pilots who need a refresher in how to be a better pilot.
I am not a pilot. (Wasn’t able to complete training). I am curious if it would not have been at least equal!y as dangerous for the pilot to have aborted his landing with no way of knowing the intentions of the other pilot? If the 2nd plane had decided to take off before he had cleared the runway…. If this is a valid concern, what was the best option for our pilot?
“I would have flown a bigger pattern to allow for more time.” If you were on a “3-mile final”, you weren’t in the traffic pattern to begin with…
Regardless, there is absolutely nothing in 14 CFR Part 91 that prohibits two aircraft from being on the same runway at the same time at a non-towered airport.
The airplane sitting on the runway does not hold the “right-of-way“ over anyone else in the pattern.
Even if he tried, the DPE could not sell a 14 CFR Part 91.13 “Careless or Reckless Operation” case with1,500 feet of separation.
You have a lot of hours. I would have liked to seen you take a picture of this guy leaving his student in the plane running and tell him to take it up with the FAA when you file your report with pics of his negligence. He has more to loose than you. He probably has 300 hours flying in circles. That’s why you read many stories in general aviation news about instructors and students crashing.
Dick Gecko – Funny comment re Oshkosh and Sun ‘N’ Fun!
Re the FAA, they might also, if not moreso, have an issue with the touch and go/stop and go mixup as having created a risk, rather than the instructor’s terrible-two’s temper tantrum. Separate from 14 C.F.R., these incidents, if no harm resulted, should, like so many situations in life, be resolved by an open but calm talk.
Hopefully the student was not too spooked by his teacher’s antics – or finds a new teacher.
That instructor needs anger management or he needs his licenses pulled. Like someo said, if he reacts like this what will he react like when he has a real emergency.
Some people are just like that. It is a mental condition and not easy to change. He should not be an examiner. Talk to the FSDO.
I had a student that was so disturbed that he damaged his plane on his next aircraft operation after a similar encounter with a self appointed airport / pilot “expert” that displays behavior characteristics similar to those that you described.
Anger management and vehicular operations do not mix well as demonstrated buy the frequent road rage reports.
I believe the irrational behavior of that individual was a contributing factor in the subsequent student solo incident.
BTW: I’m looking and not finding the answer in the FAR. Somebody who uses the FAR as a bathroom reader set me straight.
At a non-towered airport, can two airplanes occupy the runway at the same time? (Omitting formations, where there is an agreement among pilots).
I see where planes on final cannot bully a pilot off the runway by virtue of ROW (In my imagination: land & taxi-back runways) if the pilot on the ground is making an effort to clear the runway.
But I am not finding where landing behind a stopped airplane, as in this situation with lots of runway, is not allowed.
Very odd behavior from a man in the education & evaluation business. He’d certainly have a conniption fit at Osh or Sun ‘n Fun.
If nothing else, with 5 planes in the pattern at a busy airport, a stop & go is rude & wastes other pilot’s money & time. If he’s not going to expedite the “go” part of stop & go, he’s being paid to exit & taxi back to keep the flow going.
Having said that, while I don’t see anything necessarily wrong with landing in the 3500 ft behind the stopped plane, i suppose it is unnerving to think of a plane landing behind you in your blind spot.
I would have gone around, side stepping to the right to observe the oblivious pilots on the runway, while making some comment on the radio about the “disabled aircraft blocking the runway.”
Frankly, I’m impressed with that many planes in the circuit, that “Touch and go ops
prohibited if there are 3 or more acft in the tfc pat” (from the DeLand AFD) or similar isn’t declared by the airport management. It’s these kinds of rudeness & squabbles that lead to such restrictions.
One should always plan on a go-around on every landing. Perhaps you should have gone around, flying to the right side of the runway to keep Y in sight. If you were in the pattern why were you on a 3 mile final, just curious if you were following others or that’s your normal pattern.
Yes agree the DPE was out of line and should be able to get his thoughts to you in a civil manner.
I do totally agree with the comment of Mr. Mark.
Looks like the examiner and the 8000 hour pilot are a good match since neither can deal with the obvious.
First, as an examiner myself I’d like to apologize for the behavior of this obvious horses rear. No reason to yell…ever…
Next, call the FSDO and talk to the DPE Focal. He can help you hash it out and get this DPE some much needed guidance.
Stop and go aside, with another airplane already on the runway, the ASRS reporter is trying to rationalize their decision to land on a runway that was already occupied which is a bad idea.
A pilot should always be prepared to go around, and I am surprised that someone with 8,000 hours felt that would be unsafe in this case. What if they had balked their landing and needed to go around after all, only to find themselves careening towards an airplane already sitting in front of them? That’s a far more dangerous situation.
There are a lot of reasons an aircraft may need to stop on a runway. Traffic avoidance, wildlife, mechanical problems, etc. What if the reason for that aircraft stopping instead of doing a touch and go was FOD on the runway that punctured a tire?
The right time to go around is the moment you ask yourself whether a go around is prudent.
First off a stop and go at a non towered airport busy with traffic is not to smart. Usually they are conducted at towered field with plenty of runway ahead. A stop and go at non towered airports could cause an accident.
I either do touch and goes or full stops with taxi backs. at non towered airports….
Stop and go landings on short runways are dangerous in the event of an engine failure since the departing aircraft will be a low altitude. Touch and go operations are fine but make sure you have enough Runway ahead for the same reason.
I agree with “arcy” and “rwyerosk”.
I also question the validity and veracity, of the exhibited actions of the DPE,
in the context of“ADM”.
This account certainly hints, that perhaps the said DPE, is not yet fully qualified, to perform the duties of a DPE.
I totally agree that the instructor may not have acted professionally by yelling. But I also believe that if one is on final and there is another aircraft on the runway one should prepare for a go-around. And unless the other aircraft clears the runway in a timely fashion (well before one’s flare) the go-around should be executed. With some specialized exceptions like the Blue Angels, one aircraft on the runway at a time has been a fairly good policy for the last hundred years or so.