I have to admit, I’ve had a sneaking suspicion I was an idiot for some time now. Maybe I should join IA (Idiots Anonymous). “Hi. My name is Ben and I’m an idiot.”
What would make me admit such a thing? The comment section of this very website, of course. The NTSB Accident Reports we republish are among the most viewed content on the website. They also produce a good number of comments.
A recent Accident Report recapping a Pitts and Piper mid-air collision is a case in point. Joe Henry Gutierrez claims…
Any idiot that flies an airplane without a two-way radio should have his u-know-what cut off. If he would of had a two-way radio he would of heard the Piper in the pattern. The law says you don’t necessarily have to have a two-way radio in your airplane if it left the factory without one, but in today’s airspace, as busy as it is, would most definitely require the use of a two-way radio. If you think different and say you will continue to fly without a radio, you are a damn fool and are going to kill yourself, and any passenger you may have with you, also someone else in another airplane, just plain stupid. Again the little piece of mush between the ears we call brain, has failed us…bad crap…to say the least.
What does Joe’s comment have to do with me labeling myself an idiot?
I’m glad you asked. I fly NORDO (no radio). I have for years.
My journey to becoming an idiot started innocently enough. At 13, I started flying an ultralight. No radio. Heck, the thing didn’t have brakes either. (If Fred Flintstone’s feet were good enough for him, they are good enough for me.)
Next step was our 1946 J-3 Cub. Again, no radio.
A Standard Procedure
While I may be an idiot (or a “damn fool”), I’m not stupid. I fly a standard pattern. The one all of us were taught.
Mind you, I haven’t always been an idiot. Earning a private certificate in a Cessna 172XP required radio communications. My commercial certificate, as well as instrument and multi-engine ratings, were all earned in aircraft that prevented me from demonstrating my idiotness.
Yet after a 11-year spell of PIC inactivity, I circled back to the start and became an idiot once more. A friend has generously given me a key to his hangar. Inside that hangar is a 1946 J-3 Cub sans radio. Once again, I’m an idiot. And I love it.
A Gaggle of Idiots
But wait, if I’m an idiot, at least I’m in good company. Dale L. Weir took polite exception to Joe’s comment…
As one of your “idiots,” I have been successfully flying various aircraft NORDO for about 57 years and have about 27,700 hours total time. I always fly a normal pattern at the correct altitude and am the first to give way to other traffic.
Just because you have a radio does not make you any more safe. Too many pilots talk and don’t listen, some are on the wrong frequency, some radios are inop, or the frequency is too congested.
Get your head out of the cockpit, expect the unexpected. Do a clearing turn in the run-up area before taking the runway. Also broadcasting your intentions does not allow you to deviate from established procedures unless it is an emergency.
Dale’s closing sentence says it all. (Impressive considering he’s a fellow idiot.)
Established procedures are key. Flying in a consistent — and expected — manner while in the pattern, or anywhere, is paramount to safe operations.
Are NORDO Ops safe?
The discussion taking place online has me wondering…do you feel NORDO operations are safe? I’d love to know your thoughts.
Of course, the results of this simple, one question survey was far from scientific, but it give us a flavor of what you — our trusty readers — believe.
Truth be told, the answer falls somewhere in the middle. I’ve flown hundreds of flights without a radio and not once have I become an accident statistic. More so, I’ve never been accused of unsafe operations.
We all have the ability to fly safely or not — whether you are an idiot or not.
Idiots unite!
Was reading all the comments and was wondering why all the BS about
flying NORDO go on the Ebay website and surely you will find comm set
that will fit your budget. Then every one will be at ease .
Just a thought
Even a $200 handheld would be a great improvement.
I also am an idiot! However that does not prevent me from utilizing whatever tools are at my disposal which may include a portable in a NORDO aircraft. There is no guarantee that the other aircraft is maintaining standard procedures or broadcasting their intentions, so it is prudent to keep that in mind at all times. Unfortunately, I have a belief that there is a notable lack of emphasis on airmanship in current pilot training and an over-reliance on technology. I can think of a number of incidents, some fatal, wherein the aircraft involved in collisions were both utilizing radio. NORDO is safe . . . as long as we make it so.
With all this arguing about a radio or not, about the safety of flying NORDO or with or without ADS-B many are missing a very important point.
The point is to fly safely and use your head. Ben points out, even has a diagram of flying a standard pattern. If you are NORDO and NOT flying a standard pattern, you are the problem. If you are the guy that insists on landing on grass at an airport without a grass strip, you are the problem.
Same with the guys that make non standard radio calls, fly outside the rules, flying like a real idiot, you are the problem.
Parachutes add safety. Are you an idiot if you don’t wear one? Airframe parachutes add safety too. Are you an idiot if you fly a plane without one? What about ADSB Out even where it’s not required? How about wig-way lights on 24-7? Shoulder harness airbags? AoA indicators? Point is, there are things that can add to safety that we may not all use. Let’s not try and label people “idots” just because they don’t use every available option out there.
There are equally in percentage terms as many idiots driving airplanes as there are driving cars regardless of how much experience they may have and we all know from experience that defensive driving is the absolute surest and essential way to stay alive and uninjured on our highways and byways when mixing it up with them. So it naturally follows that defensive flying is also necessary especially when in the vicinity of an airport and its runway complex. But for light signals and maybe the occasional/rare hand signal everyone driving a car is Nordo insofar as communicating their intentions but somehow we manage most if not all of the time (if you’re so fortunate) to avoid collisions with each other. Assume the other pilot is an idiot whether he/she communicates his/her intentions or not and will do something totally idiotic at the most inopportune time and allow yourself to be pleasantly surprised when that doesn’t happen.
The real idiots are the ones that keep their head buried in the cockpit, talking on their radio, while watching their thousands of dollars of glass cockpits, hoping all those crutches will point out traffic they should be seeing with their god given eyes.
ATP 36,000 hours.
No such thing happens. But what DOES happen is a goof without a radio is a danger to everyone in the sky including themselves and anyone in the plane with them…the days of macho bravado are long past in aviation.
Btw. not long ago a guy owning a flight school in a Class C intl airport went down with a student. Wake turbulence. ATP/CFII 39,000 hrs. No matter how many hours you have you can still get dead being careless.
Many good pilots fly NORDO and many bad pilots fly with a radio – the radio makes you neither good nor bad. BUT I have always considered a radio a safety Item. Even when I did not have an installed radio I carried a handheld. I am not saying that one need always use it, but better to have than not to have.
SO I’M ON THE RADIO MAKING MAKING ALL MY ANNOUNCEMENTS AS TO MY POSITION AND INTENTIONS OF LANDING. ANNOUNCING THAT I AM ENTERING THE PATTERN (AT PA) ON A 45 THEN AGAIN ON THE DOWNWIND FOR RWY X. I THEN HEAR ANOTHER PILOT SAY HE’S COMING STRAIGHT IN FOR RWY X (in a faster airplane than my C-150). I REPLY THAT I’M IN THE PATTERN ON THE DOWNWIND READY TO TURN BASE WHEN I SEE HIM STILL ON THE FINAL APPROACH WITH NO RESPONSE ON THE RADIO. I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO EXTEND MY DOWNWIND TO LET HIM LAND BEFORE ME. HE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ON THE RADIO EVEN THOUGH I KNOW HE WAS NOT “NORDO” AND ON THE RIGHT FREQ. BECAUSE HE ANNOUNCED THE STRAIGHT IN APPROACH. APPARENTLY BECAUSE HE WAS IN A FASTER AND MORE EXPENSIVE AIRPLANE (A CIRRUS) THAN ME, HE DECIDED THAT HE HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY AND DID NOT NEED TO TALK WITH A C-150 WANTING TO TO TURN BASE AND FLYING SAFELY IN THE PATTERN. FLYING WITH A RADIO AND NOT USING IT IS THE SAME AS NORDO.
Sounds like you must have encountered gbigs in the pattern….
Ok, that’s funny…I don’t care who you are ??
You’re going to give gbigs an inferiority complex with comments like that. LOL
Notice the ‘old timers’ defending their flying with little to know modern equipment, you know, because that’s how they learned back in the Wright Bro days. Flying is dangerous…and the more you can mitigate the danger the more you stack the odds on your side and anyone in the plane with you. Simply NO EXCUSE for flying without a radio. None.
If you’re flying NORDO PLEASE fly a standard pattern. I’ve had two very close encounters with crop dusters at a municipal airport. Within a few minutes of each other. The airport had no taxiway so, after refueling, I taxied to the south end of the runway. Watched a crop duster take off, make a left turn out and disappear behind nearby trees. I made my radio call that I was back taxiing to the north end of the runway. Halfway down the runway, a crop duster turned VERY short final about 100 feet off the ground. No radio call. I headed for the grass. He finally saw me and aborted landing.
I taxied to the end and pulled into the run up zone.
Pulled up to the hold line. Made my departure call. Checked for planes on final. There were none.
I start to move forward and checked final one more time. And I catch a glimpse of ANOTHER crop duster on a straight in less than 100 feet agl. He was below the distant tree line and almost impossible to see. And he wasn’t talking on the radio! I could well have been below his line of sight if I had pulled onto the runway.
My issue with these cowboys is not that they were NORDO, but that they were flying obscenely non-standard patterns at a public use airport without radio communications. In which case, the word IDIOT is most appropriate.
I agree with the crop duster deal, have had a couple close calls myself!!
The FAA has been pressured to allow planes like crop dusters to fly without a radio. Fine. But that’s not justification enough to allow a few dozen planes that are used in ag work to allow ANYONE to fly around without a radio.
Radios are cheap. The FAA should change their rule to require at least a hand held radio in ALL planes that do not have a panel mounted radio. Has anyone seen a crop duster at a non-towered airport? Maybe one in ten years..
Well, they darn sure aren’t flying at controlled fields so just where do you think they operate? Maybe you don’t live in agriculture country but there are many duster planes flying in and out of public/ municipal airports in farm belts.
And as I said above, if they can’t even carry a little handheld they should at least fly standard patterns.
I would add, please fly a standard pattern even if you do have a radio….
During my days flying military helicopters, I had numerous close encounters with private aircraft not making radio calls in the blind around uncontrolled airfields. Don’t know if they were NORDO or just didn’t feel like talking on the radio. Keying the mic and saying a few words doesn’t take that much of an effort and it might keep a 46,000 pound helicopter from ruining your day.
I compare this to boating. There is no law that mandates a two-way radio on board the boat (talking about recreational boating). If you go out on the water without a way to communicate, you are an idiot.
Sorry, but flying without a radio is idiotic. I don’t care how many flight hours you have.
Ya know, I’ve read the miles and miles of comments in this thread of the “Goods and the Bads” of flying without the use of a radio and all this time with “No Accidents” etc., etc. But, and as it’s been pointed out in numerous instances here, there’s more involved here than just yourself. Just because you’re a cautious aviator and execute safety practices religiously, DOES NOT MEAN that you can ALWAYS count on the other guy to do the same. But, to cut through all the crap, it escapes my reasoning that, for what ever reason, why would any rational thinking person discount the obvious bonus of having a radio on-board during a flight. At least it would be there if you had to have one. The old saying, to me, is very valid here: “I’d rather have one, and not need it, than to need one and not have it!” If it’s a question of cost to have a radio installed in an airplane or the possible nestalgia element of having a vintage “Like back in the old days” plane with no “amenities”, I can’t see any real viable reason to not at least have a “Hand Held” on board. They are very affordable. Especially when it’s your “Fat that’s in the Fire!” Just sayin’!
Mooney driver here, I am also an active skydiver with over 4,000 jumps. If you are flying cross country NORDO please check your charts for those little parachute symbols and study your NOTAMS. We Meat Bombs are hard to see coming straight down at 120 knots. Normal jump altitude is 13,000′ and we open our canopies at 2,500′ AGL. Between those two altitudes we are difficult to see and avoid…….
If you are depending on see and avoid in a NORDO plane you are doomed.
Nothing dogmatic about you is there?
How do you know you no one complained about your flying? You didn’t have a radio to listen to possible complaint..lol
Got me there Jimmy.
My best advice is to keep your head on a swivel, and fly the pattern. With 46yrs and 7000+ hrs, I’ve seen people anounce position, but not aware where they really are, people flying a a downwind 3 to 4 miles from the airport,and I’ve also have been cleared for an intersection takeoff at Tower controlled fields with aircraft touching down or on short final a couple times. A radio is a great tool, but not necessarily going to keep you completely safe.
I have a experience flying with the “NORDO” for 30 years and 12,456.9 flown hours. I never make mistake. I am a Deaf Pilot License and my own plane are all good fine.
I know who pilot have get panic NORDO must understanding how to landing safe and keep your eyes open alert other traffic aircraft but not hear no… Because hear have many miscommunication never 100% prefect.
Your responsible PIC flying. I mention GA have many accident landing but I believe pilot did not pay attention reading from the FAR/AIM there.
Not my problem… Who pilot own problem…
? hahahahhhaaa!!! Hey Miguel, actually “would of” is the correct usage in southern redneck society. I should know…I be one. Hahahahhhaaa!!! This is hilarious, you couldn’t make this stuff up.
Good read.
Side note… it’s *would’ve, NOT “would of” (this makes no sense in English).
Too bad
If you have a radio, by all means, USE IT. From that point on, assume NO ONE else has one and proceed accordingly. You’re welcome.
Exactly!
I have not been a licensed pilot long enough to weigh in on this subject at all but I will say this. Staying alert has been the best advice given to me. Just recently while departing a local small airport on runway 18, I heard a pilot that stated he was 4 miles “out” and going to do a “straight” in on 18. I looked twice as I was waiting on the plane that just took off in front of me and then started my roll. As I took off I noticed two aircraft ahead of me and wondered how I could have missed the second aircraft. Turns out, the pilot that had announced (more than twice) that he was 4 miles out and going to do a “straight” in landing on 18 was turned around completely and was approaching from the south and was headed straight for me coming in on 36. I had to turn right as he continued to descend and it wasn’t until he was on final that he figured it out, let out a few expletives over the radio and then began to apologize. The airport was busier than normal with the pattern almost full and that could have turned out to be tragic. Anyone can make a mistake and I get that, but it still made me realize that it’s not just my flying I have to watch out for…..it’s the other people in the air too.
Perhaps if the nordo folks could fly their neighborhood with traffic display,(fly with a buddy’s newer plane) and decide how safe it really is.
Clearly you haven’t read all the comments here, or you have an opinion and facts won’t change it.
When all is said and done ….Its the other IDIOT ……with radio comms …or without…..not paying attention to the pattern…flying a faster plane, perhaps concentrating on the numbers at a little higher than you ……and BAM …the end
And lets not be fooled this happens when both aircraft have twoway comms……..all to often ……so Idiots or not its that moment when we lose awareness of our surroundings that an accident will happen . Like the other flyers I believe that in this day and age, with the increased numbers…fast and slow aircraft in the sky, a radio is an imperative part of your well being……..use it ……make sure that anyone and every one knows your position and intentions …and always keep your eyes outside the cabin. And if I may in closing……….For all the IDIOTS flying without a Radio…get one !!!!!!!!
Depends on where you are flying. A good pilot should be able to adapt to different flying situation. ie the commercial pilot who takes his cub out on the weekend is probably a better pilot than a commercial pilot who never flies anything but his companies plane on the same route every day and never varies. Rule book fliers are probably the safest pilots when everything is going fine but when things go sideways I like someone with some seat of the pants experience. I say being able to fly safely without a radio is a good thing.
Baloney!
Nope, he’s right.. Many commercial operators are glorified taxii drivers.. Take off, auto pilot on, get close auto off, land.. done.. wow, so exciting and challenging.
Jose Feliciano: It’s not baloney! Remember the SFO crash? Why did it happen? It happened because the pilots were nothing more than glorified computer operators. When stuff didn’t work, what happened? “Oh the ILS is down? OMG WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO??? How do I program the AP to land without the ILS?”
Remember Sully? The guy who landed the disabled plane in the Hudson? Where did he get the SKILLS to do that? Because he was also a proficient glider pilot.
Michael Ronneseth: there are many comm pilots who couldn’t fly a plane to save their own lives!!! The Asiana Airline pilots are a perfect example.
I am a pipeline pilot and one of my greatest fears is a midair collision. The pipeline I patrol runs through several small airports and requires me to fly at 500 feet in various directions through the pattern, and also approach and fly away from the field within a mile or less as I fly the various loops on the pipeline. Personally, I think it was stupid to put a pipeline there (likely the airport was first), but since I can’t avoid it I hope and pray that most people will announce their location. One of the fields I fly through is a grass strip, and on a nice day I expect to see many NORDO planes in the pattern. If I am lucky one has a radio and will let me know how many and where. Other times I fly through untowered fields where most, not all pilots have radios and use them with various degrees of effectiveness. PLEASE announce yourself when you hear an aircraft approaching! If I don’t see you I’ll let you know and circle until I do. While it’s your right to fly without one, I agree in the idea it’s like a seatbelt: you may not be required to do it but it sure is a good idea.
I spend most of of my time flying to uncontrolled airports where a majority of the traffic is crop dusters. As cool as they are flying low and avoiding telephone lines most of them are Nordo. I also have adsb in and out. I have spent a large amount of time avoiding them and experienced a few incidents where they clearly did not see me and to this day probably do not realize how close they were to causing an issue. As traffic increases over the years avoiding primitive technology (2 way radios!!) is not something to take pride in. Going Nordo is not only dangerous for yourself but you involve other aircraft into unnecessary risk which is nothing to be boastful of.
One thing I have learned for sure reading these reply, if it were not your comment, everyone else is a Dumb Bunny.
How does a radio help you when en route between your departure airport and destination airport? How many of you have heard someone call in “Cessna 12345 on XYZ VOR 345 radial, approximately 30 miles out from Kxxx”? Not ALL midairs happen in the traffic pattern. I was almost rear ended by a twin who was flying from directly behind me at a difference of about 10 degrees of heading. Exactly at my altitude. Missed my right wingtip by maybe 50 feet. I had a radio and I’m pretty sure he did. I was in an open cockpit airplane with a cruise speed of 68 MPH. He was obviously faster. We were both at about 1000 AGL. Being he came up behind me flying on almost the same heading as me, if he had been looking out his windshield, he should have seen me with plenty of time to go around me.
You cannot get flight following without a radio. You cannot hear other traffic without a radio. You cannot report your position without a radio enroute. You cannot request different altitude safetly without a radio.
It is a really bad idea to fly cross country without a radio, or fly near many airports without a radio to assess traffic.
GBiggs, you can’t do any of this or fly with flight following without a transponder either. Want to add idiots without transponders to your list?
NORDO is legal, deal with it. It’s legal at least in part because it works IF YOU USE IT follow standard procedures and don’t depend entirely on “tech” to show you traffic. Of course a radio and transponder are helpful, few here have said otherwise, but having a radio doesn’t mean you won’t be involved in a midair.
For those who still think ADS B is the answer riddle me this, why does the regulation only require ADS B out? ADS B in is a separate system and you see nothing if equipped with out only. Why are the airlines and the military exempt from the 2020 mandate if its about safety and collision avoidance? The biggest risk is with the biggest airplane hauling the most people or most capable of doing damage on the ground, yet they don’t have to comply. Why? Because they said the can’t (won’t) and the FAA cant make’m. What are they going to do, tell the airlines and the military they can’t fly? I don’t think so Tim. But can they tell GA “you can’t fly without it”? Bet your buttons they can but the reg is still designed such than numerous aircraft don’t have to comply, never will AND once the mandate for ADS B out is in place, since it only applies to airspace where a transponder is required today, how many existing transponders will slowly fade away making your ADS B in and active traffic systems even less effective than now.
Bottom line folks, “see and avoid” isn’t going away. If you don’t know how to scan for traffic find someone who does and learn. 20/20 vision and looking out the window has little to do with it.
Flight following is a BASIC requirement for long cross country flying…especially if flying into and out of airports for fuel (which will happen). Yes a radio and a basic Mode C transponder should be required equipment.
And since ADS-B is almost here, a Mode S transponder would be even better. ADS-B-out is required because ATC needs to see ADS-B traffic. But if you really want to be safe, having ADS-B-in is prudent. I have all these things in my Cirrus.
See and avoid is a basic requirement in both VFR and IFR flying. That will never go away. But as I and others have pointed out, flying without a radio endangers everyone, the pilot and other planes. Especially since the skys are a LOT busier than they were 80 years ago when planes were all flown by pilotage only.
GBigs….You commented that, ” since ADS-B is almost here, a Mode S transponder would be even better.” … It is a bit puzzling why you put those two things in the same sentence, since generally speaking, ADS-B and Mode S transponders are two different things.
Unless perhaps your Mode S transponder was upgraded to extended squitter.
UAT transceivers could also provide ADS-B out, and they use existing Mode C transponders, so again, Mode S is not a part of ADS-B.
Only ADS-B “Out” is required. But why not also add ADS-B “In” and get tracking data and free Nexrad weather?
The FAA has designated two options for ADS-B “Out”: One is the dedicated 978 MHz universal access transceiver (or UAT), and the other is the pairing of a 1090ES MHz Mode S “extended squitter” transponder with an approved GPS navigation source (WAAS enabled).
The UAT only gets you to 17,999feet. The 1090ES gets you into the flight levels and lets you fly outside the USA in compliance.
GBiggs you need to be lobbying the FAA rather than pontificating here to get some more rules to satisfy your ultimate goal which is apparently to kill off general aviation for airplanes below a retail value of about $250K. You might as well throw in a rule requiring airframe parachutes since you no doubt consider that to be a major safety feature as well as a transponder, radio and ADS B.
By the way there may be more air traffic today than 80 years ago but it’s indisputable that there is less GA activity than there was 30 years ago when the transponder requirement was promulgated. Has the number of midairs been affected? It’s hard to prove a negative but it is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the increase in air traffic over the past 30 years has been in air carrier and high end bis jets which all operate in an environment even your Cirrus can’t attain so they’re unlikely to encounter NORDO aircraft. Since most NORDO aircraft will operate below 2000 ft AGL and around non-controlled airports all you have to do is avoid that airspace and you’ll do far more to reduce your mid air probability than adding radios and ADS B.
By the way the airframe parachute in your airplane was inspired by a midair collision and that’s still the best reason for having one, good for you.
The points I am making are shared by most on this thread…You are the one who appears stuck in some time-warp of old thinking.
My first plane was a SLSA Flight Design CT. It was new at $160k. It had a fuel-injected engine with FADEC-like ECU, dual Dynon glass panel, ADS-B in/out, Mode S transponder, Garmin GTR 225 radio, Garmin 796 EFB/GPS nav coupled to a 2-axis Dynon autopilot and a BRS chute.
The Cirrus SR22T is equipped in the same way but does not have FADEC and has all Garmin avionics instead. And cost a LOT more, but is substantially faster and can fly far higher has deicing, an infrared camera and built-in oxygen.
The BRS chute is an advanced safety feature critical not just for mid-airs, but also for flight over water, night flying, engine failures, pilot incapacitation and structural failure.
From my perspective arguing over a cheap radio is irrational. No one should be in the sky without one, not even a powered kite or glider.
You’re entitled to your opinion as am I. Obviously you live in a different world than a lot of people in GA.
So how about deaf pilots? Oh, I know! Let’s just revoke their certificates!
We have a commercial rated who visits our field occasionally to visit family, she flys across several states to do so. Better be looking out the windows.
I hope you are never going to be that
Guy that berates a fellow pilot on the ground for not using his radio at a radio not required airport. He is not breaking any FARs – but you sir will be breaking
City, County, and State Laws for
Harassment. Just saying
Keep it friendly — and your head on a swivel
Who knows…he could have been head down messing with the radio. One big problem with radio…same as on the railroad. Always cross a track at least 10 feet away from any railcar in case it moves unexpectedly. Never crawl under a railcar in case it moves unexpectedly. Never move your train when you have crewmembers on the ground unless you can actually SEE them…do NOT assume that you have a radio, they have radios, they can hear you announce your intentions.
Lax medicals, no radios, brother-in-law BFRs. Sounds to me like another example of the same “cowboy” minority of GA pilots wanting all the RIGHTS of flying without taking stock of the potential impact of thier actions on others. Sorry, but its 2017, not 1917. Bottom line is if GA wants respect from the FAA and to have GA airports to be funded, then GA pilots need to act like professionals.
FAA says flying without a radio is OK. What’s that got to do with being “professional”?
Dave-
My day job is flying along at FL410 doing 500kts across the country, listening to the radio transmissions continisuly. On my days off I want to go back to 1917 flying old tailwheel aircraft without radios, because I enjoy that privilege in this modern day society.
I would be more than happy to give you a Cowboy BFR, there actually now called ” Flight Reviews ” in a old Piper Cub without a radio or a transponder!
Well focus on stick and rudder skills, and how seat of the pants flying can save your life no matter what your flying. What there won’t be is radio calls, Flying the aircraft always comes first. From a marginal “Professional” to another…. fly safe
TOUCHÉ!!! And that my boys, is what you call a beat down. Score another for the airline pilot flying his Cub. Holy guacamole Batman, this is good stuff. Better’n Hollywood I say. Ben, bet you never foresaw all this… Hahahahhhaaa!!!
Airline pilots.. well who needs a radio, just turn it off too, and your radar and transponder while you’re at it.. Ridiculous to use your status a a “professional” to minimize the net positive effect of radios WHILST in class A, fully controlled, with separation, with much less congestion. But again, if see and be seen is sob perfect, turn off your radios and transponders and see how well that would work for ya..just stick to your standard pattern lol
Great discussion about a great article, Ben! It’s always fun to see how lit up some folks get about these topics!
I’m going to have to join you on the “idiot” team for some of my operations, at least!
Keep up the great publication! I think about your dad every time I click on your site!
Cheers and Happy New Year!
JJ
Hey been flying sailplanes for 40 yrs and no radio.Still here.
A. sailplanes are patch flyers usually out of non-controlled airports B. sailplanes have the right of way, others are required to watch for them and give way C. sailplanes are very slow and have a TON of 360 views far easier than powered planes to see and avoid
So…. You are ok looking out for sailplanes, because they have the right-of-way, but not for NORDO traffic? The airspace system is based on “see and avoid”. It is not based on “talk, and listen to avoid”
Thanks JJ. All sides add much to the discussion. It has been interesting. Best to you in 2017. Yep… I still think of Dad everyday. Best wishes mate.
Ben,
Once I flew with onboard traffic detection systems (eg. ADS-B, TAS, TIS-B, etc.) I learned how difficult it is to visually acquire distant and even nearby traffic. People who have never flown with these modern technologies are living in a world of blissful ignorance flying around the skies thinking they’re seeing all nearby traffic. They may be seeing 10% of it. I’ve seen other pilots write of how these systems revealed the myth of aviation’s long time traffic separation strategy of “see and avoid”.
Since your introduction to aviation was along what are typically NORDO type aircraft it’s natural that you’d see NORDO operations as normal and safe. Just because you’re still alive after so many NORDO flights does not mean you have not assume greater risk for you, your passengers, and other pilots and their passengers.
There’s always a cost/benefit tradeoff against all risk we assume in life, especially in aviation. In 2017, there’s really no good reason for every pilot to not at least have a radio in their aircraft (or handheld) for making position calls in the pattern.
I also believe everyone should have a transponder so everyone else with onboard traffic systems can detect them.
That’s my opinion.
ValinHawK
The fact that you see traffic on an ADS-B in device means one thing, you’re not looking outside you’re looking at your device. And the fact that you see traffic on the device you can’t see when you look outside means nothing when the overwheliming amount of traffic you see will NEVER BE A CONFLICT! The only traffic you need to see is that you might hit the fact there is more traffic out there than you can see is meaningless.
Also as has been pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES on this thread ADS-B will NOT DISPLAY ALL THE TRAFFIC and ALL TRAFFIC ISN’T TALKING ON THE RADIO EVEN IF EQUIPPED. In addition since statistically most midairs happen in close proximity to an airport are you head down in the traffic pattern area or approaching a traffic pattern looking at traffic? The radio does nothing except tell you where to LOOK. It’s a tool but it wont keep airplanes from running into one another. Learn to scan for traffic, it’s not the same as looking out the window.
Full disclosure, I fly an airplane which is ADS-B out/in equipped and while I admit it is somewhat fascinating to see all the traffic on the display it doesn’t convince me in anyway that “see and avoid” is a quaint antiquated concept. I still have to see the traffic to avoid it.
I agree that one still needs to visually acquire the traffic. The onboard systems help one know where to look. Just like a position report on the radio does.
In my particular case, in our airplane we also have active traffic (TAS) so as long as people have a transponder and have it on we can detect them. Once everyone has ADS-B In/Out we’ll probably pull it out of our airplane…
Not true. I have been flying with ADS-B for three years. You get audibles when aircraft are within a setup altitude diff to your position and whether they are within a setup distance from your position. The targets you see on the PFD also display the position and altitude relative to you for both TCAS and ADS-B.
ATC often provides traffic reports after ADS-B already displays the target. And no question those flying without ADS-B are not seeing half the traffic that is out there.
Safety features like a radio, ADS-B, TCAS and in my case a BRS parachute are critical to going up and getting back down safely again….Especially in busy airspaces as found in California and around controlled airports.
I find it amazing that several pilots actually report the use of a radio distracting and yet they fly fast complicated a/c.. Making a radio call is simple and effective.. It absolutely doesn’t reduce your ability to still check your wind screen. Personally with the cost and small size of a portable I am still astonished they aren’t mandatory.. I see people will amazingly argue they don’t need one, never have yet right? I’ve heard the same stupid argument about seatbelts for years and heck ABS brakes and stability control, all of those arguments are utter nonsense.. As a rule they provide a staggering amount of safety improvement with almost no downside.
“I’ve heard the same stupid argument about seatbelts for years and heck ABS brakes and stability control, all of those arguments are utter nonsense.. As a rule they provide a staggering amount of safety improvement with almost no downside.”
No downside? How about cost and complexity? The fact that they work is indisputable but also indisputable is that cars still run into each other and people still die. How far are you willing to carry the “there oughta be a law” argument? Why not just outlaw stupidity and ignorance, that’ll fix it.
A cheap entry level Hyundai has ABS and stability control, this stuff isn’t expensive, LIVES ARE, so yes people will still run into one another, which is why we now have lane departure control, cars that can avoid collisions etc etc. Yes, at first the cost is higher but all these technologies become cheap with volume, as they have. But we’re talking about an $80 transceiver, that’s probably less expensive than the tank of gas going into the plane that day. If you think a radio or ABS or any of that stuff is expensive and complicated, you’re still living in the early 70’s when the newest of that stuff first came out.
Having and using a radio didn’t help the guys in the Luscombe that got hit by a Cherokee driver. Witnesses stated that the Luscombe was on downwind for Rwy 18, R.H. Pattern at Aero-Country and was using his radio. The Cherokee came out of the sun, didn’t use his radio and broadsided the Luscombe. Three people dead!!! A radio is an additional safety device, but like in this case, won’t protect you from the real idiots who fly across airports at pattern altitude because apparently they don’t seem to know or care where they are. Too many people fly their radio and forget to fly the airplane. Keep your head on a swivel and use your radio as an extra safety feature if you have one.
I am an engineer/pilot in the aircraft industry and have found that too many pilots put their trust in 30 and 40 years old, very primitive technology. Radar, radios and ads-b can and do save lives. I see pilots spend $14000 for a paint job on an old tired piston engined planes and cry about a set of new spark plugs.
I guess the paint job makes the old biddy look good. Like going to the bar, after a few beers you want to take them to bed.
Warning before buying a handheld VHF check how many minutes of continuous transmission it will holdout. You will be surprised maybe five if good.
I fly a 1946 non-electrical VFR Aeronca Champion. Have flown it several times across the country without mishap. I use handheld with shielding circuit and external antenna with few problems . I spend most of my time looking outside, that’s why they use Plexiglas, Right? Airport Patterns are where most midair collisions occur so I fly standard patterns, NO straight-ins. High/low wing collisions need even extra attention. Wing tipping helps and also increases your visibility. I’m 75 you and intend to die peacefully in bed. Most ‘encounters’ I’ve had were other pilots reading their instruments instead of just looking outside. ‘Old vs. Bold’ really applies here. My 2 cents.
P.S. I have one more thing to add Mr. Ben Sclair, I have to agree with you as you calling yourself an, ” idiot”, as you continue to do so in your opening paragraph, you called yourself an idiot ten times, if its o.k. with you, I totally agree with you beyond a shadow of a doubt, especially with the Flint Stones mentality. Doing established and consistent procedures in the pattern didn’t help the cherokee pilot any did it ? If I remember this accident the pilot of the cherokee had his Grandson with him, correct ? The person in the pitts didn’t have a radio, thus causing the almost fatal accident for all concerned. I also have various ratings as you, Mr. Sclair, the difference is I don’t borrow friends airplanes ( J-3 cub ) with big windows to look out for traffic, except that in the J-3 if you look up to the left all you see is the underneath of the wing same with the right side and the top of the airplane, leaving you with about 30 percent of see and avoid, not very much and with Nordo, bad combo wouldn’t you say? When you pick up your friends airplane do you do what sod busters do and fly out in the bunnies where no one fly’s, other that yourself, then you buzz your Grama’s house to get your jollies hoping you don’t nose the airplane in the roof of your Grama’s barn roof ?? Mr. Ben Sclair up till now I was enjoying reading your Pod, but I have become very disappointed in you and what really comes out of you mind..sorry..
I am sorry to disappoint you Joe. Your comment inspired my column which has stirred up a tremendous discussion. For that, thank you for speaking up.
I stand somewhere in the middle. Flying in remote areas into quiet backcountry fields doesn’t seem to require radio use. And for a plane that simply can’t accommodate convenient use of a radio whether built in or handheld it seems ok to go NORDO and take appropriate cautions.
However I do have a radio in my ancient 172 and use it pretty religiously, and am especially courteous with it at busier fields even if they are uncontrolled, and especially at fly-ins.
I assume that those who have radios will appreciate my reports, and still understand that I have to keep my eyes open for NORDO aircraft – or for planes with pilots talking on the wrong frequency, failing to make reports, etc.
I also have a small belly antenna installed with a handy BNC connector, and can use it with my inexpensive handheld radio when needed. I had a couple of problems with the installed radio where the handheld was very handy. And it can be useful too if I lose power and/or the electrical system while I am on the ground in a remote area, whether by choice or unfortunate circumstance. One more way to summon and coordinate help!
To make it easier and less distracting to use the handheld I have an adapter for my headphones, and made an additional adapter with a push to talk switch that can be Velcroed to the yoke. It works just like the built in radio and I don’t have to tie up a hand holding it, etc.
I have fly-ins at my ranch strip in New Mexico and a requirement for attendees is that if they have radios they must use them to make standard reports, and I encourage the others to borrow and use handhelds. Of course all attendees are to watch out for NORDO traffic since almost any flying things on wings or rotors are welcome to attend.
Regarding static – that can be minimized by putting the antenna near or on the tail and running coax and a BNC plug up to the cockpit area. The radio frequency interference (RFI) drops off rapidly with distance, which is why using a handheld with its little whip antenna in the cockpit right behind the engine doesn’t work well at all!
Finally having a handheld in anything that flies also provides one more option – the ability to contact ATC or FSS or fly into tower controlled airports, and one day one may be in a situation where that is the best – or even the only – good option!
Fly as if there are tons of NORDO aircraft around you, but it is really better if you aren’t one of them!
Cheers,
Rol
My son is deaf and getting his private license. He will have restrictions, not to fly in controlled tower airports, etc. my question to you is, should we crush his dream of flying? Or teach him to fly the paddern and look around like his head is on a swivel? I hope you all fly a paddern and make radio calls, but not everyone can here you!
Wow, I can’t believe most of the comments I just read. Speak on opening a can of idiot worms, whew..haha I can’t believe it, simply unbelievable. Grown up men making these kinds of comments regarding the most safety tool invented to be used to save our lives and most of you refuse to use radios because of what you call reasons, is pure nonsense. I to started flying in 1955 in a champ w/no radio, but as soon as I realized how important and must have a radio was to me, I was never to fly an airplane w/out a radio, period. Why I say idiot is when a person is told about something that could very well save your or someone eleses life and you prefer to ignor it is plane ludicrous and idiotic. That’s where that little piece of much between the ears comes in handy, if used properly, of course. I just hope I don’t find myself flying in the same airspace as you, even if you have over 27,000 hours in your logbook as one one the commenters said. whew..I still say,” I can’t believe there are so many idiots”. Sorry, not intended to hurt anyone’s feelings , just my unbiased opinion .thanks Joe Gutierrez
Joe-
I fly non-radio aircraft every week, And I have for the last 25 years. I’m based at an airport with three busy flight schools. When I’m not flying my ” dangerous j-3 Cub” I’m flying my Cessna 140 with a radio. And this is what I hear from students now days on the radio- I’m at the gas pumps, what runway do I use? I’m 25 miles south inbound, Cessna 123 this is my last call.
Who is teaching this stuff?!?!? Read the AIM
I happen to fly into non-towered airports for 10+ years in regional jets with 76 people behind me ( maybe your family ) with NORDO cubs and champs in the traffic pattern. And I do the same thing in a Boeing 737 now! Are we dangerous? Should I tell the passengers there at risk?
Being able to “borrow” another aviators airplane is the ultimate respect you can earn as a pilot, respect, professionalism, and above all trust. So remember that when you fire up your rented C-172 next Saturday, that your taxing from the gas pumps to the active runway…..
In closing I learned to fly from that 27,000 hour idiot pilot you refer to, in the family piper Cub, he has also has had the honor of making the the cover of GA news. Fly safe…
The only problem with your argument is the statistics show that the majority of midair aircraft are equipped with radios.
Your analogy is like saying the majority of car accidents only happen to cars with a radio. The majority of aircraft have a radio.
The point here is that those flying san radio are DEPENDING on others to see them. Is that fair or safe? No.
Just get a radio and quit endangering others.
This is curious. Since when do both airplanes in a potential conflict have to see each other in order to avoid a conflict. Only one has to see the other. If I don’t have a radio I can’t hear you and you can’t hear me but one of us has to SEE the other. Doesn’t matter which one. If you’re not scanning for traffic because you can’t hear it on the radio or see it on a device you can go down in flames secure in your opinion the other guy is an idiot, but the outcome is still the same. Learn to LOOK! Is looking for traffic 100% effective, NO. But having a radio won’t prevent midairs either, the stats prove it.
Wrong! Those with out a radio are depending on themselves to see and avoid the other traffic! You are very much an idiot if you are depending on someone else to see and avoid you, (or to hear and avoid just becouse they/you have a radio)
You do not understand the rules. All pilots with or without a radio including instrument, commercial and ATP are REQUIRED to see and avoid in VFR conditions. And you cannot ‘hear’ other aircraft while flying yours.
If you are curious about the rules suggest you read the material supplied by the FAA on aviation and possibly go up and take a test flight to see if you might like the sport.
GBigs you’re talking in circles. Have you come around to the idea that NORDO is safe and legal?
A radio is an unwelcome distraction when flying VFR although necessary when IFR. My 68 years of flying have included 62 years of pilot employment including 33 years with a major U.S. air line. In addition my private flying in both aeroplanes and gliders has been continuous to now. Every unexpected flying confrontation I’ve had and they’ve been numerous has been when under the control of ATC, either FAA’s, the military’s or a that of a foreign nation. The most important safety equipment on the aircraft is the window!
Har Har! Well said Mr. Draper. I couldn’t agree more. Not just with flying but with practically everything I do in life I aspire to the KISS method. It has always held me in good stead. The lifelong experience you listed with technology, FAA interaction, etc. probably trumps every other contributor to this thread, and with it you confirm my lifelong inclinations. And I’m not arguing NORDO one way or the other either. I have always flown with a radio. But it is only an “aspect” of safety, and certainly not the most important one, as you so very well point out.
This is just not true. Tuning into ATC enroute whether VFR or IFR is a must. Even having Unicom tuned into a backup when flying near an uncontrolled field is also smart. Flying without a radio is no different than flying without enough fuel to reach your destination IMHO.
Well said. The only thing the damn radio does is MAYBE tell you where to look you still have to see the traffic to avoid it. If you know how to look for traffic and fly a standard traffic pattern, radio or not, you’ll see the same traffic you’ll hear on the radio or see on ADS-B. If you don’t look you won’t see. It bothers me that so many people are starting to think “see and avoid” is only a legal principal not a means of collision avoidance.
If having a radio makes collision avoidance so fool proof why not just do away with the windows entirely they just let in a lot of light and heat anyway. Mandate a 3D display and an autopilot along with the radio, problem solved. Anyone without the scratch to play is out of the game, simple.
Respect respect 68years of flying.
Those who defend the absence of a cheap radio cockpit by claiming “see and avoid” will keep you out of trouble are missing the point. If you fly enough hours you will eventually have a near miss or at least be surprised by an aircraft that “popped” up in the sky at your level and coming at you or from behind you…usually a guy with no radio.
If traffic avoidance was 100% using just your eyes then the FAA would not be mandating ADS-B collision avoidance for ALL aircraft.
GBigs… your comment about ADS-B being mandated for ALL aircraft is totally incorrect. ADS-B was not designed for GA traffic avoidance, and will NOT be installed in ALL aircraft. If you think that you can rely on ADS-B to point out ALL traffic to you, then you are putting yourself and others at serious risk. This is true now, and will be true even after 2020. MANY aircraft do not and will not show up on ADS-B “in” systems.
ADS-B, or Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, is a cornerstone of NextGen air traffic modernization, and the FAA has mandated that aircraft operating in airspace that now requires a Mode C transponder must be equipped with ADS-B Out by Jan. 1, 2020.
This includes EVERY aircaft, military and passenger service jets.
To assume you will only be flying around a corn field or stuck 10mi from a little uncontrolled airport and never enroute anywhere or near a Mode C veil is also ill-advised as not flying with a radio.
I fly in the NYC area and don’t have to go very far west to be outside the area where ADS-B compliance is mandatory. Oddly enough this area contains a lot of traffic inbound for EWR, LGA, TEB at lower altitudes. There will still be many airplanes without ADS-B operating near busy airspace. Those cornfields are much closer than you think.
Seriously?! “Usually without a radio”, on what do you base that observation? Or is it an opinion? Should it be illegal to be on the “wrong frequency”? Should VFR flight following be mandated? Has there never been a midair when both pilots and controllers are talking to each other?
So you think ADS-B is about collision avoidance? If so why not do away with the windows entirely, they’re obiously only there to let in light and they make it too warm in the cockpit. Everything you need to know to fly can be put in front of you, all you need to do is program the autopilot, right?
ADS-B is NOT “mandated for all aircraft”. Read up on it. The basis of the requirement for it is NOT as collision avoidance tool.
Thank you Bart… at least you understand. Regrettably, the FAA is not making it clear enough that ADS-B is NOT going to show ALL traffic to aircraft with ADS-B “iin” systems. There are many aircraft that will simply NOT show up, depending on: the altitude you and the traffic are flying, the kind of aircraft (military, coast guard), the part of the country you are flying, and the type of ADS-B “in” equipment installed (dual frequency or single frequency), and your distance from an ADS-R repeater station. It does take some reading up on it to truly understand its limitations, and there are many.
Not only the limitations you outline but the little problem with existing Mode C transponders. If you want to fly in airspace where a transponder is required today you will have to have ADS-B out after 2020 but if you don’t need/want to fly in that airspace you don’t need a transponder at all! Who’s going to repair or replace a mode C transponder after 2020 if they don’t fly in “rule airspace”? I’m betting a lot won’t and then those airplanes, which do show up as traffic to properly equipped ADS-B out aircraft now WON’T SHOW UP ANYMORE. The upside is less traffic will be shown than today.
I got my license in 1946. I flew tail draggers out of El Paso with out a problem. Back then very few had radios and depended on light signals.
Wrong. ADS-B is a mandate for all aircraft including military aircraft that will be flying in controlled airspace. All must have compliant “out” and most should be installing an “in” in order to use it as it is intended, as a collision avoidance technology. Aircraft must have it by 2020.
Again, those flying without this gear and without radios are a danger to those of us that do have responsible and safely equipped aircraft.
If traffic “is popping up” in your field of view you seriously need to learn how to look for traffic. Just having windows won’t help. There is a way to look for traffic and then there’s “looking out the windows”, it’s not the same thing. Clearly you need some instruction in this area.
Your condescending tone says more about you than any alleged aviation knowledge you no doubt lack. Flying sans radio is absurd, especially considering how cheap they are….you are no doubt the kind of guy that mocks people for wearing their seat-belts too.
My tone is condesending!!!!! Are you serious?! I believe you’re the one calling those who chose to follow the allowances and requirements of the FAR’s idiots.
As for my experience 48 years CMEL instrument. As for seat belts in the car my family had them in 1961. Want to compare?
So true…
Seems to me a radio – at least one – ought to be a rule, as should training in its use. It’s fine to be a purely VFR pilot, but it’s kind of like a diabetic yelling how he knows what he’s doing … while he downs his fourth Coke.
Notice many say flying with no radio is safe….that is absolutely a reflection of the attitude “no one will tell me what to do” and not a rational response. No question a radio is the very BASIC safety tool in flying. The macho attitude has no place in the skies. Frankly, it is this macho attitude that “real pilots don’t need to be safe” is at the root of such a response.
I understand flying backcountry and non congested areas NORDO, but as a flight instructor I’d like to say a few words. I speak for myself and every instructor at every flight school. At flight schools, often at towered airports, whether we are on the ground or in the congested training airspace safety is ALWAYS PARAMOUNT. We instructors literally bust our tails so that our students are safe, and we are quite successful but not without too many close calls to count. Instructors know that as humans we need to feel safe and secure to be comfortable in our aircraft and achieve the ultimate goal of enjoying flying. Dale said that there certainly are idiots out there, who don’t listen, cant comprehend, wrong freq etc. To assume that because there are idiots out there, utilization of a radio does not make you more safe, is simply ignorant.
To say that you have flown hundreds of flights, thousands of hours NORDO without becoming a statistic is even more ignorant. Would you say that because you’ve crossed the street 100 times without looking both ways means that you can cross the street forevermore without looking both ways and never get plowed by a tractor trailer? I mean golly I’m about in disbelief reading this.
Lets consider others when we go flying. The student pilots, a young 18 year old girl with a bright future on her first solo cross country flight. While although her instructor has prepared her, she is vulnerable to human factors just as you are. One mid air collision because you didn’t hear her radio calls, a young innocent life is lost, parents losing their child, and an instructor who needs to find a new career.
In closing, yes we all have the right to fly. But we choose to be smart or stupid.
Totally agree, you can cross a country road a hundred times without getting hit but it’s insanity to thin it’s safe.
Not if you look both ways before crossing. No radio required either.
Laughing.
Idiot? No. Not really thinking it through… Yes.
A quick review of midair accidents in the NTSB DB for the past 20 years where Factual reports are available using key words “not radio equipped”, “not equipped with radios”, and similar key words with various permutations shows that about 1 NORDO is involved a midair accident each year. I found and read the factual report and any posted docket information for about 24 accidents. Nearly all of the NORDO aircraft involved in these accidents were operated in the pattern, and were fixed wing. These data suggest that pilots of NORDO aircraft very likely contributed to midair accidents by failing to transmit key information needed by other pilots, or by themselves being ignorant of the location and intent of other pilots. According to the NTSB graphic of ‘Defining Events’ for “GA Pleasure Flying” in 2014 about 20 midair events occurred, nearly all involving only powered aircraft. Nearly all occurred at non-towered airports. Assuming number of midair events in prior years was approximately estimated by the 2014 occurrence that means somewhere near 5% of midair events have a NORDO component. While it is impossible to accurately determine the relative representation of NORDO and radio equipped aircraft in the US fleet, I’ll go out on a limb and say that of the there are likely fewer than 5,000 NORDO aircraft in the active fleet. I’ll assume for this exercise that “NORDO” means the pilots don’t use ANY type of radio – including hand helds.
If this is so, then NORDO aircraft involved in midair collisions with other aircraft are disproportionately over represented. This very strongly suggests that while “idiot” is a bit strong, willfully and recklessly operating with a known deficiency (imperfect situational awareness) would be a better description of your behavior.
You can find several years worth of bar charts that display annual numbers for several accident “defining events”, including midair collisions, for GA Pleasure flying on the NTSB website. I thought of posting the URL for the 2014 bar chart, but based upon past experience have found the GANews doesn’t like web addresses in the comment block.
Do I use a radio? Sure. Even in the J-3 with no electrical system, my FBO keeps a handheld in there and part of the preflight is checking the battery. Less than two-thirds on the life indicator means new battery before departure.
That said, we are still relying on a handheld. I was trained in NORDO ops. There is good reason why “standard procedures” are standard. Stuff happens, and regardless of whether you have a radio, people need to behave in a predictable and consistent manner. When they do, stuff like loss of the radio becomes a non-event.
I use a radio, but I am certainly not going to call anyone and idiot for flying NORDO. Use the “wetware”, that stuff between your ears. Even with NORDOs in the pattern, if everyone follows the rules, there is no reason for a collision to happen. Sounds like, if anything, some pilots might need to add a little standard-operating-procedure discipline to their flight practice. Laziness or carelessness are idiocy when operating airplanes, not flying sans radio.
Forgot to add: getting one’s head out of the cockpit is also a key to safety. I am very thankful to have had primary training in a Cub with an instructor who stressed that. Eyes up, head on a swivel. See and avoid is still the bottom line. Last time I checked, per the regs, making a radio call does not give you a waiver on see and avoid.
Having no radio has no relationship to radio use. And the nonsense that “I fly in the backcountry we few to no other aircraft are flying” is also nonsense. At some point you will fly into an airport and there will be other aircraft all around you. There is absolutely no reason not to have a basic radio, even a handheld.
I agree that you should know how to fly a plane without a radio and you should have the habit of a pilot that doesn’t use a radio, but to not have one? Seems ridiculous, it’s like not getting a phone because you’ve never had to call 911, that would be considered idiot behaviour.
The real issue is why is there no requirement to carry a handheld backup radio, not fly with no radio.
OK, calling one an “idiot” is rather harsh, but I do question the judgement of someone flying into a busy airport without a radio, especially considering that handheld radios are so cheap these days and their batteries last long enough for a couple of flights, especially if you just turn them on for airport operations.
I had a Garmin GDL88 installed in my bird 3 years ago and now that I have traffic information right in front of me I am amazed that on almost every flight it detects traffic that I never see even when I am specifically looking for it. See and Avoid has serious limitations, and even with the new technology it is not possible to detect every conflict, but every single edge with regard to keeping airplanes apart helps.
I understand that many pilots out there have thousands of hours of safely flying NORDO, but I don’t consider it a virtue to be proud of the fact that you make a conscious decision to fly NORDO when for under $600 you can get a decent handheld radio and a cheap headset to make pattern operations safer.
btw: having a radio isn’t enough to be safe. You also need to know how to use it. There are still too many pilots that will wastes precious time on the radio without actually communicating useful information. Radio operations are really simple when you get down to it. Be concise. A simple template for effective communication is “Hey you, it’s me, I’m here, I’m going there.” At an uncontrolled airport you don’t need to tie up the frequency with useless information like your tail number, or use excess verbiage that doesn’t add to information. A nice simple call like “ABC Traffic, Cherokee 7 South East for the Left Downwind 17”, or “ABC traffic, Cherokee entering Left Downwind 17 behind the Cessna, in sight” are examples of short calls that convey a lot of information and do a good job of avoiding mergers between two aluminum entities.
The real idiots are the ones that keep their head buried in the cockpit, talking on their radio, while watching their thousands of dollars of glass cockpits, hoping all those crutches will point out traffic they should be seeing with their god given eyes.
ATP 36,000 hours.
Ok…how about someone who is deaf? The FAA actually DOES allow deaf people to have a certificate! So, I guess THE FAA IS AN IDIOT FOR ALLOWING DEAF PEOPLE TO FLY!!!
WHAT??!!
From the FAA website:
Are there limitations placed on a deaf pilot’s certificate?
Yes. A deaf pilot’s certificate will include the limitation, “Not Valid for Flights Requiring the Use of Radio” (14 CFR section 61.13).
If I am deaf, can I obtain a pilot certificate?
Yes, an individual who is deaf can obtain a pilot certificate in one of the five categories of aircraft: airplane, rotorcraft, glider, powered-lift, or lighter-than-air.
What are the differences in the certificates?
A student pilot certificate is designed for the initial instructional period of flying. The student pilot is limited to flying with the flight instructor or solo after appropriate instructor endorsements (Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) sections 61.87 and 61.89). A recreational pilot certificate limits the holder to specific categories and classes of aircraft, the number of passengers which may be carried, the distance that may be flown from the departure point, flight into controlled airports, and other limitations (14 CFR section 61.101). A private pilot certificate permits the pilot to carry passengers and provides for limited business use of an airplane (14 CFR section 61.113). A commercial pilot certificate permits the pilot to conduct certain types of operations for compensation and hire (14 CFR section 61.133).
What are the grades of pilot certificates?
There are five grades of pilot certificates that are available: student pilot, recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, and airline transport pilot.
What types of certificates can a deaf pilot obtain?
A deaf pilot can obtain a student pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, and, on a limited basis, a commercial pilot certificate; for example, agricultural aircraft operations, banner towing operations, or any operation which does not require radio communication. With new interface technology for incockpit receipt of weather information and digital communication, additional pilot certificates may be available to deaf pilots in the future.
https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/deaf_pilot/certification/
Yep – they do. Their license is endorsed to restrict them to airspace where no radio is REQUIRED. So no Class B, C, D airspace without another hearing pilot. But class G – OK.
Sure. And that pilot can NEVER fly near or into a controlled airspace.
And your point is? Neither can a pilot with no radio. You’re the one who’s convinced flying without a radio IN ANY AIRSPACE is unsafe.
I fly out of a private, public use airport with over 400 based aircraft. I would guess 35-40% of them do not have electric systems or radios. We also have three runways, 12/30 paved, along with 9/27 & 17/35 grass runways. On a nice day, particularly weekends or calm evenings, all three runways will be used at the same time with almost half of the planes not having electric systems or radios. As someone already mentioned, even the non-elec. system planes with hand held radios don’t have shielded ignition systems, so they are almost impossible to understand. You get used to keeping your head on a swivel and looking twice or three times for traffic.
Automobiles at one time came without seat belts. Many died, then waist belts were required and many survived. Then it was realized shoulder belts would save more, and they did.
Then airbag systems came out and saved even more people.
It is foolish to not take advantage of any available safety device that is affordable, proven, easy to use.
A hand held radio plugged into the pilots headset is all of those.
You make it sound so easy. Maybe the radio would help, maybe not but making a handheld work in an airplane with no electrical system and no shielded ignition isn’t as easy as buying a radio.
I totally agree Tim.
Well i don’t think fly NORDO is unsafe, planes aren’t dangerous, pilots are. Historically, around 73% of the accidents are human related, on the other hand, by the price of a two way radio right now i don’t risk myself to fly without one, in fact i fly with an onboard radio plus a portable radio as a backup for my xcountry flights.
I learned as an idiot, and I’m not an old timer. I got my license a couple years ago, and just got my instrument almost a year ago. I’m 20.
When I was flying as an idiot, my instructors taught me that every airplane is out to get you, so look outside the airplane. I got to know the airplanes I flew so well I didn’t need to look at the instruments all the time, as I knew what pitch attitude would give me the speed I wanted. And looking outside has saved me from many close calls from pilot’s who do have radios and expect everyone to have one as well. I was always the one to make concessions for the pilot’s with radios, even landing with slight tailwinds.
Do I think NORDO is safe? If the “idiot” is trained to look outside the airplane, yes, AND if the smart pilot looks outside the airplane, yes. If nobody looks outside the airplane, NORDO aircraft or radio aircraft, nobody is safe.
You are self-admitting you are new to flying. The concept of looking outside the plane is NOT a substitute for a radio. Esp when flying with flight following. If all you do is crop dust then no radio makes a small bit of sense, but at some point you may need to fly that crop duster to an uncontrolled airport where dozens of planes may be in the air and in the pattern as you try to land.
Radio’s have created an envirement that has a false security attached to it. The basic problem is the newer generation’s of pilots are taught incorrectly in that their first exposure is “radio and instruments” and not “airplane and flying”. They have a tendency to believe every airplane out there has communications capability and are going to pay attention to what they are saying, and tend to ignore established procedure around non-controlled airports. Radio’s are required at control towered airports, but even there procedures are in place for no radio. The electrical system is the most unreliable part of any airplane with one, which includes the radio. If you assume that every airplane around you has a functioning radio, then my friend, you are the more dangerous pilot there.
Certainly not idiotic to fly NORDO. It’s done every day. It’s hard to defend, however, that not installing one, or at least using a handheld close to an airport, is forgoing an additional layer of safety. Back when Cubs, Champs, etc…were the norm at the ol’ local field
radios were not needed. I’d argue that while they aren’t required, and the notion of the romanticism of flight is enhanced by puttering around with no doors and no radio, the reality is sharing the pattern with Pipers, Cirrus’, LancairCessna’s and the like makes it a helmet….I don’t HAVE to wear a helmet when I’m on my mountain bike….but it makes sense.
Perfectly stated.
The reality is as Ben notes–the answer is somewhere in the middle. I once watched a G1000-equipped 182 fly over the field and the CFI and private pilot owner eventually landed but admitted “The G1000 kept saying we were getting closer but we couldn’t find the airport! We kept looking at it to see where we were and when it said we were right over the airport we looked down and saw it.” And before you blame the millennials (I am one, FYI), the CFI was retired, in his mid to late 60s, with thousands of hours. The pilot-owner was in his mid-40s.
Anyways, I’m now based at a non-towered airport near a major metropolitan area. My previous flying was done about 45 miles away from a Class C airport, and radios were not necessary. We’d often have multiple NORDO aircraft in the pattern, often using different runways to practice crosswind landings, and the only problems we ever had were from people that seemed to think they “saw” traffic with their radio. All that said, the mix of high-performance aircraft and convergence of approach paths for two other airports at my current base has left me with a desire to outfit my no-electric aircraft with an antenna and handheld which I’ll be doing in the next year. Ultimately, be aware of your surroundings and the needs of your situation. Don’t assume an airport you might land at on a cross-country is the same as your home base–check in on the radio if you have one, but assume there are NORDO aircraft out there.
At your home airport, outfit your aircraft or change your habits as the situation dictates. No big deal.
For any sensible pilot, flying NORDO should be used only an emergency situation. A couple weeks ago there was a clear example of the danger flying NORDO creates. Near Dallas a high time pilot and his son took off NORDO. As they climbed out, a Piper descended on top of them as the Piper was entering downwind. Flying NORDO reminds me of an old Burma Shave road sign:
“He was right as rain as he sped along
But he’s just as dead as if he would have been wrong.”
Just a note of clarification here. According to witnesses and a friend of the Luscombe pilot who was killed the Cherokee entered the traffic pattern from the opposite side of the downwind, at pattern altitude and T boned the Luscombe. Would a radio in the NORDO airplane have mattered? Maybe, but assuming the Cherokee was talking on his radio what would have been his call? ” Cherokee XXXX entering a non standard pattern from outside and crossing over to the downwind.”
The traffic pattern configuration was developed during WWII when training large numbers of pilots in NORDO airplanes and it worked pretty well. Randolph Field in San Antonio would have dozens of airplanes in the pattern at the same time. I know because my dad was there and he taught me to fly the pattern as designed. They had some midairs then too but almost always because somebody wasn’t looking and or flying the pattern as he was expected to.
Using a radio and expecting it to get conflicting traffic out of your way is the same as engaging the turn signal on your car and expecting the lane you’re moving to will be clear when you get there. Is that the way you drive?
Sorry guys but there’s a little problem with your handheld radio solution. A lot of old airplane’s which never had radios or an electrical system also don’t have a shielded ignition system. Without shielding all you’ll hear on a handheld radio is noise. Been there done that.
Ok, then shield it. Simple. It’s an airplane, not pottery in a museum.
Obviously you have no idea what’s involved in “so shield it”. A complete new ignition system is required including plugs and in some cases magnetos. Sure it can be done but it’s not just as simple as buying a radio. Does the investment of several thousand dollars make it safer? You haven’t convinced me yet. Too many probably most midairs involve two airplanes with radios. If the radio is the solution why is that?
Actually, the shielded wire set for an A-65 or O-200, with Bendix or Slick mags is less than $200. and ,honestly , most of these older engines could use a new ignition harness, after 50+ years of use.
I vote to use a radio, handheld or panel mounted. We have a number of biz jets flying the approach at 150 kts, and they’re very hard to see from any where in the pattern.
Exactly Jim.
Bart, you’re talking to a mechanic. As a result, I do know a little about it. Believe it or not, sometimes you need to spend a little money to keep your aircraft operationally safe and up to date. In this case, it’s not a lot of money. But, say it does cost a lot, that’s the choice you made when choosing to become an aircraft owner. Unless your the type who buys an aircraft and never flies.
Whether it costs $200 or $2000 to install a shielded ignition system and buy a radio is beside the point. The point is does the radio enhance safety enough to justify ANY cost? Most airplane’s involved in midair collisions are equipped with radios so I don’t see how you can claim radios are a safety feature simply because you can point to a few accidents where one airplane involved didn’t have one. And justifying the expense of a new ignition system just “to keep the airplane up to date” is silly. A shielded ignition isn’t any more reliable than an unshielded one especially if you keep using the 50-70 year old mags and that’s the only way you can get the cost down to $200 plus plugs plus labor plus radio plus external antenna plus PTS etc etc etc. Fly a standard traffic pattern learn to look outside and most mid airs are avoided. The pattern we fly today was developed during WWII when there were literally dozens of NORDO airplane’s in the airport vicinity returning and departing on X country flights as well as in the traffic pattern. It worked then, it’ll work now. Nobody has to be an idiot because he won’t buy into the mantra that radios keep airplane’s from running into each other.
Handhelds do not interfere with engines. That is a silly myth.
Seriously? Is that what you interpreted this to say? I sincerely hope you’re being facetious.
The one comment quoted of “or the frequency is too congested.” makes me wonder a bit? Really, if the frequency is that busy there must be a lot of traffic either at your airport or at a nearby airport if more than one airport shares frequency. Of course you would not know unless you can see them ALL if you are NORDO.
If you fly at your private field in the middle of nowhere, then NORDO works fine. if you fly into a public field with very little traffic in the middle of nowhere, then NORDO works fine. But if you are in any other airport please be considerate to your other pilots and get a handheld radio.
One question for all those without a radio, What is the down side of a portable radio? I will even bet 99% of NORDO pilots own a cell phone. And there is no law that says we must have cell phones either.
As I understand it, you cannot use a mobile phone for comms while flying unless you have a declared emergency.
Frequency too congested. 122.8 in New England. It got so bad at KUUU – Newport – aircraft – both calling – both stepping on and being stepped on by each other and surrounding airports and subsequently going head to head on a calm runway….. We didn’t have an accident because we petitioned the airport authority for a new frequency. Which we got.
Then there was a stupid year of having to listen to the old and new CTAF for the people who hadn’t read NOTAMS or updated databases or charts or AFD’s (as it then was). In fact that had been a risk factor considered for staying on the old frequency.
You certainly needed to keep your head on a swivel and politely but firmly talk to pilots who arrived on the old frequency – especially those who liked to make “non standard” pattern entries – you know the guys who insist on flying a right pattern entry at a left pattern airport. They think the radio makes it OK. As I will consistently point out – it might SEEM OK – till the day you meet the NORDO aircraft flying strict left pattern to try and stay safe. He is not an “idiot” – he just had an electrical failure and was trying to get down safely.
Idiot.
(Just kidding. I couldn’t resist!)
A competent pilot in a non-radio aircraft is no more or less safe than the dope in his G1000-equipped airplane that makes radio calls like, “I’m 6.3 miles from the field.” Think that pilot is looking outside? Doubtful.
There may not be any statistics to back this up, but I doubt that airplanes without radios have a higher mid-air/incursion rate than any other airplane.
The see and avoid concept relies on seeing, not talking, to avoid other aircraft.
You keep on flying that radio-free J-3 Mr. Sclair!
Utter nonsense. A radio is basic. They are cheap. No such thing as see and avoid at all times.
totally agree.basic common sense.[common sense=”genius in disguise”]
Sure…until that radio has a malfunction in midflight. Things go wrong with radios. Batteries get discharged. Radios get dropped. Antennas come loose, or even off, or break. The whole “a radio is the final answer to everything” is ridiculous. Then there is the matter of “Oops, I forgot my radio!” Yeah, I’ll just fly back to my base airport and get it… Always have a backup radio? What if the backup radio doesn’t work? A back up radio for the back up radio? So…how many radios should you have? 5?
Now what if your certificate says “”Not Valid for Flights Requiring the Use of Radio”?
Idiotic reply… We have redundant systems in many a/c that may well never get used but if needed they are there. If they fail, one can still revert to that procedure but how often does a radio fail…. not often if it’s newer and solid state. I suppose a pilot could forget new batteries, or to charge the radio, same pilot probably does a poor pre flight, forgets to fuel his plane and his required paperwork.. it’s about being ready and prepared.. probably doesn’t have a first aid kit either, after all how often does one crash!
Not at all idiotic. Radios DO break. It is easy to accidently drop your radio.
So…how about “Not Valid for Flights Requiring the Use of Radio?”
Ok Ben, we can all argue safe or not for NORDO till the cows come home. But when you laid your ego to the side and took that stance on idiocy … well let’s just say you had me from that point on. I was cracking up. I really enjoyed the article. And I like your style too…padna
I had this similar conversation recently after a discussion about a recent mid air.
One of the guys was very defensive about how it is ok to fly nordo and “You are supposed to be looking out the window.”
Yes, you are, I admitted.
But flying with your eyes open is one tool you have.
Communicating with other aircraft on the CTAF is another tool.
For me I wouldn’t fly into any decent airport without a radio any more than I would fly into one with a blind fold on.
Hand held radios are cheap and easy to throw into any old Cub or Champ.
Headsets save a lot of wear and tear on your ears.
A lot can wrong and I ,. for one, like to have all the tools available so I can live long enough to die of old age, not screaming my lungs out as I plunge to earth in a flaming fuselage with only one wing or no tail feathers.
But that’s just me.
I don’t think flying NORDO really makes one an idiot I think it makes one not using all the tools available.
If looking outside was 100% then ADS-B would not be a coming mandate.
GBigs… you need to get off your notion that ADS-B is going to solve GA traffic conflicts. Example: if you fly into Port Townsand’s Jefferson County airport, there is NO requirement for aircraft flying there and doing touch/goes to have an ADS-B system installed. If you are expecting your ADS-B “in” system to point out ALL traffic, you are going to be seriously disappointed.
No one said any safety device ensure 100% safety. But there is no question flying without a radio is not only dumb, it’s irresponsible.
I have been flying with ADS-B in/out for two years. I would not go into California at all without it. You will not have a full appreciation for how dangerous the skies are until you get this tech.
The presumption that you will NEVER or rarely fly in or near controlled airspace is dangerous also.
Totally agree, my eyesight is very significantly better than most and even with the knowledge of an other aircraft within 3miles, same altitude mile separation, I had difficulty finding him in the terrain. The radio let me know for certain we weren’t in conflict.. At a closure rate of 300kts even if you see them, it’s probably the last thing you’ll see. Given people fly to known nav points, at the proper altitude(of course) that can put a lot of traffic into one small area. Aging pilots, aging eyesight and “been doing this for 30 years” added into the mix.
While I fly with a radio and backup handheld, my closest call to date was at an uncontrolled airport where I and others were making radio calls. I was on final for the wind-preferred runway, another plane was waiting to take off from that same runway. Around 500 ft from touch down, I noticed another airplane, unannounced, about to land on the opposite runway. We both aborted landing and veered right. Way too close. That airplane, a modern radio-equipped one, never announced on our frequency.
NORDO or not, all of us need to be watching out the window around the airport.
Flying without a radio has been shown to be mostly safe. But why would any pilot not enhance his safety position by having a radio? They are cheap enough, lightweight and compact. What of pop-up TFRs, emergency transmissions by other aircraft etc. Giving up a major safety device is not smart piloting.
Ben, not calling you, or anyone else an idiot, but in this day of miniaturized and battery powered electronics I cannot find any reason to fly without a radio. Maybe you only turn it on when you’re within 10 miles of an airport if you feel it corrupts the purity of the aircraft with no electrical system, but it’s 2017. Time to have some kind of radio in every aircraft. And in case you think I’m a millennial with electronics welded to my head, in three months I’ll be 65. And I intend to have more birthdays while flying with reasonable safety equipment…which includes a radio and the proper use of it.