The pilot of the tailwheel-equipped Van’s RV-8 reported that during the 3-point landing at the airport in Roopville, Georgia, the airplane drifted to the left and he applied right correction.
He said he “obviously over corrected” because the plane went to the right and he was unable to correct with left rudder and brake. The airplane left the runway and hit trees.
The airplane sustained substantial damage to both wings and the fuselage.
The pilot reported as a safety recommendation that he should have conducted a wheel landing to provide more directional control during the landing roll.
Probable cause: The pilot’s overcorrection with the right rudder during the landing roll, which resulted in a loss of directional control and a runway excursion.
NTSB Identification: GAA17CA085
This November 2016 accident report is provided by the National Transportation Safety Board. Published as an educational tool, it is intended to help pilots learn from the misfortunes of others.
Some aircraft, and an RV-7 may be one of them, are still flying when landing three-point. In other words, with the tailwheel on the ground on touchdown the wing is NOT stalled. It’s still flying until speed drops below stall speed and thus is highly suseptible to gusts. It all depends on the geometry. Yes, they all can be three-pointed but some planes are designed so that with the tailsheel limiting angle of attack, the wing is still flying until speed declines. During this brief period the pilot is more or less a passenger.
In such planes, slowing to stall speed just at touchdown allows the tail to drop down, hitting the tailwheel while the mains are still in the air. They’ll flop down at that point and I guess one could call that a three-point landing but it’s hard on tires and struts and isn’t very graceful. It IS however the way to do it to get the shortest landing roll.
In planes designed in such a way that the tailwheel limits the pilot’s ability to stall the wing on landing (and mine is one of them), the pilot truly is vulnerable until speed drops below stalling speed. This isn’t EXACTLY true . . . as long as stick is held fully back at least the tail will be held to the ground no matter what the rest of the plane is doing. As for brakes – they’re for taxiing or for emergencies, otherwise to be left alone.
Someone mentions “tail low touchdown”. That’s how I have to do it. Unless with vicious, gusting crosswinds in which case I don’t even think about the tail. I plant the mains on the runway and keep them there with forward stick until speed bleeds off.
Unless someone has flown a taildragger that won’t let the pilot stall the wing without the tail hitting the runway well before stall speed, what I’m describing may not be clear.
Some aircraft behave as you describe. Mine did. AsI built mine and soon realised that I could either go to larger wheels – from 5″ to 6″ and so stall through being to get to the stall angle before the tail wheel touched down. However, I decided to add a few more degrees of down on full flap which places the chord line at a greater angle of attack and thus easily allows a fully stalled three point landing every time even in 20kt 90 deg. cross winds on a short grass strip.
Some aircraft behave as you describe. Mine did. AsI built mine and soon realised that I could either go to larger wheels – from 5″ to 6″ and so stall through being to get to the stall angle before the tail wheel touched down. However, I decided to add a few more degrees of down on full flap which places the chord line at a greater angle of attack and thus easily allows a fully stalled three point landing every time .
If you are not proficient in 3 point landing procedures, go get some additional training from an instructor who is tail wheel proficient. I find 3 point lands work well in cross wind conditions due to the lower touch down speed. I don’t believe I’ve heard of a “rudder stall” before. I bet you can’t stall the rudder on my Mudry CAP 10. Being a passenger in a taildragger sounds like a recipe for a ground loop.
The rudder doesn’t stall but with limited travel the wind can be more powerful than the ability of the rudder to overcome the wind. You end up in a single engine Vmca condition because of the lack of rudder effectiveness. More airspeed results in the rudder having more authority. It doesn’t take much. In planes with flaps some pilots use less flap or no flap thinking they will have more control. It results in more airspeed to compensate for the less flap making the rudder more effective.
The rudder will stall. Think of the fin and rudder as a vertical wing. If the angle of the wind on the fin exceeds a certain angle the fin and rudder will experience a stall. And will only provide an area for the wind to impact. If you use the ailerons properly it will help.
For example on your next takeoff add a small amount of power to raise the tail. Then while the mains are still on the ground move the stick back and forth and see how you can steer the airplane. This works well on landing when the tail is blanked out because of a large radial engine on the front. All early WACOs have a very small tail and fin so this is necessary.
A RUDDER WILL STALL.
Pilot incompetence not the tail wheel configuration is to blame. I learned to fly in the era when tail wheel aircraft were the norm and for more than half a century have flown mostly tail wheel machines. I’m entering my 8th decade and still fly and my current aircraft is 2 seat GY 20. This has been landed without difficulty in 20kt 90 degree cross winds on the local grass field. The number one problem in my experience is that pilots learn their flying in trike configured planes and have not been well schooled in tail-draggers – conversion to them needs more time and effort , particularly in adverse wind conditions.
The first lesson when learning to fly a tail dragger is to dominate the beast on the ground with little or no braking. Once you can taxi and control the aircraft without brakes or with very little brakes, you can continue to the 2nd phase of take offs and landings. Three point landings are only to be done when an emergency or a show or a very short runway. This is because on three point landings, the pilot becomes a passenger!
If you learn to turn the craft with braking while taxiing (leg stretching lazyness), you will always overcontrol the aircraft on the runway since braking at higher speeds procuces an ackwardly violent reaction. Remember, Tail draggers are herbivorous!
I own three tail wheel aircraft, 1929 Fleet, 1945 Piper J-3 and a 1953 C-170B. Have been three point landing them for years without becoming a passenger….
Dale is correct, with 10k hours tailwheel time from J-3’s, Stagggerwings, Skywagon’s, Twin Beech’s, T-6’s to C47’s
three point is the traditional correct procedure for landing.
If three points are only used for emergency landing I would suggest perhaps some lessons from a tailwheel PRO.
Horse hocky! I have thousands of hours in multiple tailwheel airplane’s and I can three point them all including in crosswinds. If you don’t know how to do it you shouldn’t be giving advice to others. Suggest you go on Utube and look for old training and operational films from WWII where you’ll find all kinds of tail wheel airplane’s from T6 to B17 being landed in a three point attitude as normal operations. And by the way most WWII operational fighter runways were considerably shorter than 5000 feet, most about 3500. Want to try to wheel land a P47 in 3500 ft?
Sorry Bartr. It is my personal opinion. Thought I could help a bit with my point of view but it seems I am wrong.
I still love and fly my tail draggers!
Apologies.to all.
If you’re ever a “passenger”, no matter the landing style, you haven’t been trained properly.
I’ve been flying tailwheel aicraft for years, PA-12, J-3C and Aeroncas and I three point most of the time. In fact I find wheel landings more squirrelly in those light airplanes.
On take off & roll outs:
One rule covers all the dynamics;
Maintain ailerons PROPORTIONALY OPPOSITE the rudder. So simple!!!
The ailerons will help control the airplane when on the ground after the rudder stalls. The adverse yaw can be used to “drag” the down wind wing back to keep the airplane straight. This techniques is taught and if used will save many of these crashes. It is most effective in a crosswind. A tail low wheel landing is the best because control can be maintained.