This is an excerpt from a report made to the Aviation Safety Reporting System. The narrative is written by the pilot, rather than FAA or NTSB officials. To maintain anonymity, many details, such as aircraft model or airport, are often scrubbed from the reports.
Student and I were headed southeast in a Skyhawk in the practice box. We made a call announcing our presence and intention to fly maneuvers at 8,500 in the box.
As we reached the southeast edge of the box, we began a clearing turn 180° to the left before starting a maneuver, and upon turning, I noticed (on ADS-B In) traffic headed directly for us, a few hundred feet below, and climbing.
We continued the turn in an effort to put the traffic to our right, but the traffic also began to turn right to avoid us, while also still climbing, as indicated on ADS-B In.
My student stopped the turn for a second or two when I tried pointing it out to him while also looking up the plane’s call sign (to attempt to call them, but I saw that it was a call sign that would likely not be on frequency), then I instructed my student to continue turning to the west, seeing that they were still climbing toward us.
At this point I visually saw them off my right. They were finally turning east to avoid us and I saw that it was a Pilatus. We avoided them by maybe 0.1 miles? When we crossed by they were still 100 to 200 feet below us.
I wondered why they weren’t in the Bravo instead of blasting through our practice area.
Overall I didn’t feel unsafe, but evasive action needed to be taken, with the help of ADS-B we were able to avoid each other.
Primary Problem: Airspace Structure
ACN: 2083613
I learned to fly in 1993 at M54 in TN. I never heard of a practice box!
There was no GPS or ADS. I do recall this vague, not particularly important, ancient, non technical concept… see and avoid.
There was also this business about a local frequency… CTAF… kind of let others know that you are floating around in the airport airspace.
My first reaction (which seems to be in line with most of the other comments): since when are VFR practice areas designated as “no fly” zones? What in the world are they teaching CFIs these days?
Another head-shaker…”blasting through our practice area”…
Several things about this one concern me; although like most of these ASRS scenarios, lots of key info, including the entire “other side of the story”, is missing.
According to ASRS, this occurred in plain vanilla Class E airspace. Since we don’t know the exact location, other than “….ZZZZ” (I’m betting IVO Denver), we have no idea why the CFI would assume this Pilatus should be in Class B airspace…instead of “blasting through our practice area”?
Unlike designated Special Use Airspace (Alert, Warning, Restricted & Prohibited areas, MOA, CFA, etc.), the physical dimensions/boundaries of civilian-use “practice areas” are not charted.
There are lots of examples of areas where a “CAUTION” box is depicted on a Sectional or Terminal Area chart, with info on the activity occurring in that general vicinity, like “Intensive Aerobatic and Flight Training” or “Intensive Parachute Activity”. There may even be altitudes and radio frequencies listed, or a note to “See Supplement”; but there are (usually) no ‘magenta’ lines showing its actual size.
There are no specific FARs regarding VFR operations in a practice area/”box”. Even in the SoCal zoo, lots of “Intensive Flight Training Areas” are listed, but the guidelines that are published for flying in/through them are only “encouraged”, not required.
Regardless, if turns out that the “practice box” was actually a formal, published “Alert Area” for a “High Volume of Flight Training”…it’s still “See and Avoid”.
This reads like another case where the training ‘crew’ was trying to build total, global situational awareness, by staring at an ADS-B IN return on an electronic screen.
ADS-B IN is not an air-to-air radar: Once you “see” something on your screen, you need to look outside and at least try to “correlate” what’s on the screen with the actual threat(s) …and then maneuver as required to avoid a NMAC, or worse.
The official FAA air-to-air frequency is 122.75. Even if the Pilatus pilot knew about this “practice area”, there’s no guarantee he/she would be monitoring it, or whatever other bootleg frequency the ‘locals’ might be using (e.g.,123.4, or 123.45).
(BTW: If you dial up 122.75 in my area code, on a nice Vmc day, you’ll swear you’re in the middle of the Battle of Britain.)
Being heads-down in the cockpit, while trying to figure out if that traffic MIGHT be on the correct practice area frequency, based on their “call sign“….is probably not the best use of your limited time and attention.
In fact, it is just …silly.
(Sorry Jamie; my wife doesn’t like me to use the word “stupid”.)
Wasn’t mentioned but what frequencies were you monitoring? As a student and now as a PPL I always ask for VFR flight following.
I often fly a business turboprop airplane from Phoenix to Camarillo. I much prefer flying on low-IFR days for just this reason. I fully understand the dire need for flight training, but flying in Southern California when there is very little of it going on is quite calming.
Primary reason I fly during the week and in the evening.
In SoCal Practice Areas are charted on VFR terminal charts, including the local frequencies. Problem is: flight training does not use flight following (due to unpredictable maneuvers confusing ATC), training flights are talking on local frequencies. Other airplanes transitioning the practice area stay on ATC approach frequency. Often an issue in our practice area. Best would be to monitor the local frequency when transitioning, or monitor approach frequency on training flight. But position reports from training flights might not be familiar to “foreign” flights. And: training flights do not get ATC alerts neither monitor the approach frequency, usually. Arriving flights flying through a practice area should brief this as part of their arrival procedure and not just relay on ATC. Mixing VFR with IFR can also create hazards. Students have to learn to be aware of such situations.
None of these supposed “practice areas” are charted in the civilian world. The military does chart airspace via MOAs, Restricted Areas, Warning Areas, and Alert
Areas. Denver has a rough record when it comes to potential and actual mid air collisions. Maybe these flight schools should work with each other and the FAA FAAST teams and get something more formalized.
Not sure about areas out West, but along the East Coast, practice areas are Charted as “Alert Areas”.
8500′ is obviously msl, not agl.
Are practice areas *ever* charted?
What maneuvers are being done at 8500’ in a Skyhawk? In all my training, I never did any maneuvers in a Skyhawk at that altitude.
Depending on the airport they departed from it could be “forced.” E.g., I fly out of the Denver area and our southeast practice area has terrain at 5,500′, so we usually go up to 8,500′ (or as high as we can get under Denver’s Bravo) to practice stalls, steep spirals, etc. We do use Skyhawks as well.
Yep, only time I ever ventured toward 8500 feet was to do spin training at 5500 feet, in a piper super cub , PA18 . Back in the good ole days in 73.
Slow flight, turns about a point, stalls, steep turns, etc etc I would guess. There’s many places in the western third of the country where 8500 puts you within a few thousand (or less) of the ground..
Another case of schools mistaken belief that they can be FAA chart makers by an agreement to force all training into a box. While the rest of the world knows nothing. Lord help us from this new crop of CFIs looking at computer screens and making up their own rules.
Just because he was a military pilot doesn’t give him the right to blast through your airspace. Would be glad to have you as a instructor. Being right doesn’t matter. If your dead because of someone else actions.
The USAF does fly a modified version of the PC-12 (U-28); but nothing in this report indicates it was a ‘military’ pilot/aircraft.
Interesting concept. If you fly this you should be there and not in the uncharted space where I want to be, although apparently you see and are avoiding me.
Is the practice area charted? Otherwise, they might not have known.
You bring up a good point. Something that I think the FAA needs to address via FAASTeam. Practice areas are “negotiated” between different flight schools. They know where they are, but since those areas are not specific on any charts…. And I’m thinking that too many CFI/IIs are way too green with not enough experience, driving toward that 1500 hrs and an ATP.
If one is operating out of a towered airport (D and maybe C), then those controllers probably know about the practice areas.